Mingay History Web Pages (MHWP)





Mingay History Part 6


The History of the Talbots from Normandy    

The Mingay family name, by intermarriage became related to the Talbots, who became Earls of Shrewsbury.

To be assured that my research I had been given on the Mingays, which goes back to about 840 AD and Rollo who landed in France about 910 AD. I researched further.

In 1998 I found that the Talbots, were mentioned in the reign of Edward 2nd,born 25th April 1284 at Carnarvon Wales He died September 1327 at Berkeley Gloucestershire. He was King of England (1307-1327) he was the 4th son of Edward 1st. He married Isabella the daughter of Philip 4th of France. He was the King of France (1285-1314). Isabella had a son on the 13th November 1312, Edward 3rd born at Windsor Castle she was only aged 16 years and had married the King 4 years before.

Edward 2nds fatal handicap was his one apparent virtue, his capacity for friendship. If he was nothing else he was fanatically faithful to those he loved, we cannot now say for certain whether he was homosexual. It is clear that in Court and Baronial circles, it was generally thought he was a sodomite (unnatural sexuality) and worse, the passive partner. That a King of England should be the Pathic! Of a penniless foreigner like Gaverston, (and later of the younger Hugh Despencer) was regarded as intolerable by the baronial establishment. This Hugh I traced in the records at Bury St. Edmund’s 2nd March 1998,from the Domesday Book compiled in 1086.They nearly all came from Normandy.

In his weakness, Edward turned increasingly to his private circle of friends and in particular to Hugh Despencer, the son of one of his father’s justiciars, and Despensers son Hugh. Both were experienced royal officials, the younger had been a member of Edward’s household as Prince of Wales, and was reputed to be his lover.

Edward had married him to his niece, one of the Heiresses to the Gloucester Earldom, and he became a Great Lord in the Welsh Marches. The chief executive task of the March was to ensure the defense of the realm, and it was here that Edward 2nd so conspicuously failed. In 1314 the Battle of Bannockburn was lost, and Northern England exposed to the Scottish assault. The immediate result was a Parliament dominated by critics of the King, and the emergence of the Earl of Lancaster, Edward’s cousin and the largest landowner in the country.

In early 1325, in an attempt to solve the problem of his spouse, the King was reluctantly persuaded to allow her to leave for France, nominally as a personal envoy to her brother the Wrench King, in reality as an exile. This was Edward’s first mistake, and he compounded it when he allowed his heir Edward 2nd, a few months later to join his mother in France. Edward 3rd of Windsor became the pawn of Isabella and her lover Mortimer. A letter from Isabella confirmed to her husband, that she and her son, would not return so long as the Despencers were in Court.

In 1322, at Bouroughbridge, Edward the 2nd won his one victory, defeating Lancaster's forces, and beheading him without a trial. 20 of his supporters were hanged, and Roger Mortimer, chief of the ancient Marcher Nobility, sent to the Tower. A docile Parliament repealed the Ordinances, and the estates of the rebels were divided among Edward’s supporters, the Despensers taking the Lions share.

The personal rule of the Despensers made inevitable a direct challenge to the Kings authority, because they were identified with a personal system of Monarchy, regarded as unconstitutional, funds flowed freely into their pockets. The younger Hugh, by 1324, had deposits of over 6,000 in the Florentine Banking houses of Bards and Peruzzi alone. And in the two years he deposited a further 5,735,with the Peruzzi alone.

Roger Mortimer, who was put in the Tower by Edward, escaped to France in 1323,and it was Edward’s Isabella who became the mistress of Roger, an exiled baronial opponent of Edward. In September 1326 the couple invaded England, executed the Despencers, and deposed Edward the 2nd,in favour of his son Edward the 3rd,who was crowned January 1527. Edward 2nd was imprisoned, and in September 1327 died probably by violence.

The narrative of facts or incidents, that I have mentioned, ended when Edward 3rd the heir apparent was secure at his mothers side, with Roger Mortimer an influential Baron. Edward 3rd needed money so he was betrothed to Philippa, daughter of William Count of Hainault in France, and Holland. Edward was aged 15 when crowned King of England, which was governed during the next 4 years, by Isabella and Mortimer, in his name, though nominally his guardian was Henry Earl of Lancaster. He married Philippa at York 24th January 1328. Soon afterwards Edward made a successful effort to throw off his degrading dependence on his mother and Mortimer. While a Council was being held at Nottingham, he entered the Castle by night, through a subterranean passage, took Mortimer prisoner, and had him executed in November 1330. Edward had discreetly ignored his mother’s liaison with Mortimer and treated her with every respect, but her political influence was at an end.

It was from my perseverance into the History of the Kings and Barons, from the early years, that I was in 1998 able to trace the line of the Talbots, who they were, and how they became involved with the Kings of England. You might remember the name Hugh the Despenser, in Edward 2nd’s reign, which I found in the Bury St. Edmund’s Record Office 1998. It gave Hugh De Taleboth or Talbot, whose father was Hugh De Gourney (in rebellion against Henry 1st) who married Beatrice, daughter of William De Mandeville, they had 3 sons, Richard, William, and Hugh. Richard, was the Bishop of London (Henry 3rd born 1207-1272. Hugh De Taleboth otherwise Talbot, was made Governor of the Castle of Plessis, Normandy by his uncle, Hugh De Gourney 1118.

Richard De Talbot had from Henry 2nd,grants of land and Lordship of Eccleswall, and Linton, in the County of Hereford.

John Talbot son of Richard, Lord Talbot, and 1st Earl of Shrewsbury, (Lord of Logemorey in Normandy), born 1390,Castle and Lordship of Montgomery, April 25th 1407.Lieutenant of Ireland Feb 1420.

Richard De Talbot is mentioned in the Domesday Book, as holding 9 hides of land from Walter Gifford, Earl of Buckingham. This Richard, married the daughter of Gerard De Gourney Baron of Yarmouth.

John Talbot, the 1st Earl born 1300,and 3rd Baron, married 1st the daughter of Thomas Nevel Lord Purnival married 2nd Margaret daughter of Richard Beauchamp, Duke of Warwick from the Bishops Stortford Library, I took copies of the Talbots, who were Dukes, Barons, Earls, Lords of Shrewsbury. From 1277 to 1883.

The list starts with, Gilbert Talbot, the 1st Baron Talbot, who took part in Edward 1st expedition into Scotland in1293,took up arms against the Despensers, and was captured at Borough-bridge 1322,Justice of South Wales. (BI277-D1346).

Richard De Talbot, 2nd Baron Talbot (B1300-D1356) Eldest son of Gilbert De Baron 1st, like his father, sided with the Lancastrian Nobles, against Edward 2nd, and was captured with him at Borough-bridge in 1322. He Joined Edward 3rd and Isabella, on their landing in England in 1326, supported Baliol in Scotland in 1352, but was taken prisoner. He was present at the siege of Tournay in 1340,and at that of Morlaix in 1342, and served apparently in the Crecy campaign and at Calais 1346.

John Talbot, 1st Earl of Shrewsbury (B1388-D1453) son of Richard 4th Baron Talbot, summoned to Parliament in right of his wife as Lord Furnivall, or Lord Talbot of Hallamshire 1409-1421. Deputy constable of Montgomery Castle, assisted in capture of Harloch Castle in 1409.

He was imprisoned by Henry 5th on suspicion of lollard tendencies in 1413,but soon released and made Lieutenant of Ireland in 1414,and much more. He took Bordeaux and the whole Bordelais, but was defeated, and slain at Castillon.

John Talbot, 2nd Earl of Shewsbury (B1413?-D1460) son of John 1st Earl of Shewsbury, served in France in 1434 and 1442. He was Chancellor of Ireland in 1446. He was Treasurer of England in 1456. He was killed fighting on Henry 6th side at Northampton.

Richard Talbot, (died 1449) was Archbishop of Dublin, and Lord Chancellor of Ireland, younger son of John 1st Earl of Shrewsbury. Summoned to England charged with abetting rebellion in 1429, he opposed the Government, of the Earl of Ormonde, and both ordered to appear in England to answer for their conduct 1442 and 1443.

George Talbot, 4th Earl of Shrewsbury, and Earl of Waterford (B1468-D1538) son of John 3rd Earl K.G. I488, appointed in several offices of state by Henry 8th. He was ambassador to Pope Julins 2nd in 1511, and to Ferdinand of Arragon in 1512. He received grants of Monastery Lands. There are 21 sons and I daughter, in this line.

When I decided to trace the families of the Mingay’s, I became confused when they were found to have become related to many titled families of England. Among whom were Kings of England, who were related to the French Kings. The Earls of Shewsbury, who were called Talbots. From France. Hugh De Despencer in the reign of Edward 2nd,and his son Hugh were both Hugh DeTaleboth in 1300, but not entered in the Directory of Surnames. I was lucky to find this in the Bury St. Edmund’s Record Office, in March 1998; it was information taken from The Domesday Book.

The information on all of the Titled families, who were direct descendents by evidence filed in the Office of Clarienceur, Principal King of Arms of East, West and South parts of England, which can be seen.

The Mingay Coat of Arms, is in Burks Armoury, available in any large Libraries. Regarding the grant of lands, as shown in the Books of the copyhold, Hianor of Brooke Hall, in the County of Norfolk, where transfers of land are made to them as Mingaye, up to the time of Queen Mary.

The best "Directory or Dictionary of British Surnames" is written by P.H.Reaney, and published by Routledge, and Kegan Paul. This is what I found in a book, that the large Breton element, which fought at Hastings, was rewarded with lands in England. At their head was Earl Allen of Richmond, a cadet of the Ducal House, with a fee of the first importance in Lincolnshire, East Anglia, and the neighbouring Counties. Reaney goes on to quote F.M.Stenton’s "English Feudalism". The Breton Colony founded by Earl Allen of Richmond, can still be traced, late in the twelfth century, by personal names which give a highly individual character to the country round Boston, itself a town of Breton creation, and Louth.

In the 12th century in Lincolnshire, Allan was as common a name as Simon, and more popular than Henry, and Adam. Other common Breton names were Brian, Constantine, Jernegan, Juston and Mengi. In my research in Cambridge, Norfolk, and Suffolk, the Surname of today’s Mingay, was up to about early 1800. Mingey, Mingie, Mingy, Mingee, Mengay, Minge, Mingge, Myngaye late 1400,and many more, some in the same family. On page 223 of the dictionary of names, the entry for "Mingay and Mingey" reads, Johannes Filius Menghi c 11541155; Robertus Filius Mingghi 1178—1181 of (Clerkenwell Essex) in the Public Record Office; Richard Mingay (Feet of Fines-Essex) unpublished. It gives Mengny as a Breton name, "Stone Dog" "men" meaning Stone. Another of the original name Myngaye, is supposed to have arisen from two Norman words, the "Mein" and "Gaie" Mein a countenance, and Gai "Laughing Countenance".

The following information is from Cambridge, Norwich, and Suffolk Archives, by W.J. Mingay. Because the history of the Myngaye’s has come from Archives, and families, we must take the information, as close to genuineness as one can get. The first part is from the Families of Norfolk by J.A.Mingay in 1893, from various sources. Robert Mingaye of Arminghall by Joan Inglos had, Robert Mingaye, who by Matilda White of Shotesham, had, William Mingaye, who by Maud of Shotesham, had Robert Mingaye, who married Katherine, who had Robert Mingaye, born about 1470, who married Joane Turner, and had 2 sons. Robert born 1518,and William born 1520,at Shotesham.

I will start with William Myngaye, who married 1st Dorothy Greene, daughter of Alderman

Robert Greene, and Mayor of Norwich in 1529. They had 6 sons and 3 daughters. Dorothy died in 1 558. William married his 2nd wife Elizabeth daughter of Edmund Wood, and widow of Alexander Mather. William died in1564, he was a very rich man when he died.

The family were armigerous and was connected with St. Stephen’s Church Norwich, and the Parish, he probably lived at what is now known as No 14 Rampant Horse Street, the site of the later Mingay House.

William was described as a Mercer and Notary, when admitted to the Freedom of Norwich, and at the Dissolution, he with Thomas Necton, purchased from the Crown, the advowson of St. Andrews. They in turn sold it to Thomas Sotherton, and others as trustees, for the Parish, as it so remains at this day.

William was Sheriff and Alderman, of Norwich in 1554, Mayor in 1561, and Principal Registrar to the Bishop of Norwich. When he became Mayor of Norwich, he invited the Duke of Norfolk, the Earl of Northumberland (this must have been Sir Henry Percy, born 1532,died 1585,(8th Earl of Northumberland), and other Lords, with their retinues, to the Civic feasts, at the new Hall, now St. Andrews Hall. They expressed a great deal of satisfaction with their generous reception. He was according to a copy of the original Bill for the feast, as being elected for the second time Mayor of Norwich, in the fourth year of the reign of Queen Elizabeth 1st, who he was very close to at the time.

The copy I have of the feast cost 2—15s—11d. Who upon that occasion entertained those I mentioned above, and some Gentry of the Country, also the speech of Mr. Johnny Martin, a wealthy citizen at the dinner, after grace was said.

"This is the speech by Johnny Martin. Maister Mayor, and may it please your worship, you have feasted us this day like a King, God bless the Queen’s grace, we have fed plentifully, and now William I can speak plain English. I heartily thank you, Maister Mayor and so we do all, answer boys, answer bravo, Bravo, your beer is pleasant, and potent, and will soon catch us by the caput, and stop our manners. And so, Huzza (a shout of Joy) for Mayor and our good Dame Mayoress. Huzza for his Noble grace of Norfolk, there he sits, God save him. Huzza for all of this jolly company, and all our friends round the County, who have a penny in their purse, and an English heart in their bellies."

We now go to Arminghall or Ameringhhall, which is about three miles from Norwich South, The Old Hall was a building both picturesque and quaint, and possessed features of especial interest, notably in its elaborate porch and doorway.

The Hall was probably owned in the Reign of Queen Elizabeth, by one of the Mingay family. It has to be William Myngaye Citizan and Elderman of Norwich, who had a lease in the 3rd year of Elizabeth’s reign, of the site of the Manor, from the Dean and Chapter of Norwich. Again in the 4th year of Elizabeth as a Farmer of their Manor of Arminghall, he held his first Court.

The Priory of the White Friars or Carmelites at Norwich, after the dissolution, was demised (24th Elizabeth) for 1000 years, and the same by mesne assignments, came into the possession of Anthony Myngay, born 1589. He was William’s Nephew of Norwich, and it is supposed that he brought from it the beautiful South Porch, and inner door, also other architectural remains of the 14th century, and the 15th, which he incorporated into the Old Hall at Arminghall. A merchant’s mark attributed by Mackarell to J. Mingay a grocer, is carved in stone on a shield on the porch. When the Hall was demolished in 1900, the Arch was taken to Gressenhall. By now it was owned by a London dealer. An American buyer had been found, but the County Museums service had been offered a 50 per cent grant towards the cost of the Arch, by the Victoria and Albert Museum. In 1998 it is still in the New Court Complex at Norwich, when I took a photo of it in 1994,it looked as good as new. I also have a large sketch of the Manor, from the Norwich Archives.

This is information I received from the Walters Art Gallery Baltimore Maryland America in November 1997. Again it involves William Myngaye as above. It was about another property, which came into the possession of a Mingay. It was the Rectory Manor at Dickleburgh in Norfolk. It passed to Thomas Cromwell at the dissolution, then in 1567 to William a nephew of William Myngaye Mayor of Norwich 1561, who died in 1564, or his son William born 1549 and died 1607, who was of Grays Inn, and Trinity College Cambridge. Whilst at Wellbourn in 1619.

John Myngay born 1555 and died 1625,Citizen and Alderman of Norwich held his first Court as Trustees to the Steward, and subsequently sold it to Robert Cash, Citizen and Alderman of Norwich.

After reading this I got in touch with the people in Norwich who have records of old property, and they said yes, that it was true, but it had to be pulled down because it was not safe to live in. I then went to the local Library, and found that they had a Cromwell Museum, at Huntingham Cambridgeshire, but when I phoned them they had no records of Thomas Cromwell.

This is the History of Robert Myngaye born about 1470, at Shotesham, the father of William Mayor of Norwich 1561. Robert and his wife Joane, were the first of the family to leave the village of Shotesham for Norwich. Robert was a Cordwainer, or shoe maker by trade, he inherited some lands and tenements from his Yeoman father, but he was able to add little to these, and at his death in 1545 he bequeathed no more than 26 in cash and two tenements in the City of Norwich.

From this meager fortune, his son William born 1520,received the houses and the sum of 10, but he was a shrewd businessman. He had already climbed beyond his fathers status by being apprenticed as a Mercer, or trader in silk, one of the most prestigious occupations in the sixteenth century England. He now increased his patrimony by shrewdly buying and selling Monastic Lands. The dissolution of the Monasteries had taken place in the 1530s and within a comparative short time their Lands appeared on sale, on the open market. William Myngaye and others like him took full advantage of the opportunities presented.

As his wealth increased he was able to devote time to Civic service, and after a period as a common councilor of Norwich, he was elected Alderman. In due course he served the City of Norwich as Mayor in 1561. At his death in 1564, he had enhanced the family fortunes to such a degree that he owned Manors, in both Norfolk and Suffolk, Lands, tenements, and a Rectory at Shotesham, also Lands at Saxlingham.

He was able also to bequeath more than 600 in cash. Significantly with the exception of his Suffolk Property, all of his land purchases were in the vicinity of his ancestral home at Shotesham; none of his three surviving sons went into the silk trade. Two became Lawyers, they were Miles born 1546 died 1574, and William, born 1549 died 1607. The third was Thomas born 1557 living to 1632,he became the Squire of Arminghall.

In one statement that Miles made in the Viste of Surrey 1623, he gives his father, as William which one would normally accept. However the evidence from family wills clearly and specifically gives his father as Miles, (this was from a will left by Miles son Francis Miles Myngaye born 1546), admitted to Corpus Christi College Cambridge 1561. He married Winifred daughter of Robert CokeLetter from Holkham Hall.jpg (63116 bytes) Esq., and sister of Chief Justice Coke, of Holkham Hall Norfolk. Another part of William Myngaye’s Mayor 1561, life turned up at Shotesham, this time it came from the "History of Norfolk, by Blomefield" published in 1805,under Shotesham.  (Letter of confirmation inset, click on letter to see larger copy)

He gives Scotessa, Scotessam, or Shotesham, that signifies the village of Scots, or portions, and was very properly so called, for it was in above twelve parts, at the Confessor’s and Conquerors surveys, it had four Capital Manors, four Parish Churches, two Hamlets, and the Manors extended into Framingham, Bedingham, Brook, and Stoke-holy-Cross. In this book the following is what I have been trying hard to find, as proof on this Manor & William.

Jack 1  Jack 2 Jack 3  Jack 4 Jack 5 Jack 6 Jack 7 Jack 8 Jack 9 James Mingay K.C.


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